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Slerk

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Yes a homeless begger is more like our Lord than someone who does material things. We are specs in God's universe, the entire collective works of Western civilization is nothing before God. Morality is binary and whatever side you land on is the only thing that has any importance to God.
 

Luminous

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Yes a homeless begger is more like our Lord than someone who does material things. We are specs in God's universe, the entire collective works of Western civilization is nothing before God. Morality is binary and whatever side you land on is the only thing that has any importance to God.
You did not explain how a begger is more like God than a king, you just said so. I am not trying to pointlessly argue, I would genuinely like to hear different viewpoints so as to come to the truth. But you seem to be a troll in general so I dont know if I should engage with you on important matters such as these.

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." Proverbs 26:4-5
 

resu

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How can the powerless exercise virtue?

Would Jesus's example of humility be the same, if instead of the all powerful creator, he was a weak and impotent man, lead to the cross by violence and treachery?

His example would have been an enforced humility, his will ceasing to exist, atrophied from the inability to exert it. Instead of choosing humility, he would have been forced into it by circumstance, this "humility" thrust upon him by a power and an authority higher than his own, the virtue being deprived of the ability to exercise his will.

In truth our Lord is all powerful. His humility is the ultimate example of this virtue, because He could have stopped the path to the cross at any moment. This is humility, having power, but not exercising it. The impotent man cannot be proud or arrogant, he would quickly be humbled. It is easy for the slave to be humble, he has no other choice. The king however, in every second is tempted to use his power in selfish ways.

Our Master willed the world into being, how are we, wanderers on the dark and lonely path of spiritual enlightenment, supposed to destroy our own will, the thing that started us on our journey? The will is a fundamental part of our nature given to us by God, when He created us in His image. Adam sinned in exercising his will against the command of God, not in the use of the will itself.

Willing to be united to Christ is the only way to salvation, willing to emulate his life, willing to do good and not evil, all this requires us to have a will of our own that is unwavering. How can we ever develop this will if the teachers say the exertion of the will is evil? Teaching instead that the random course of events that happen to us in our life are the will of God. Deifying the natural occurrences in life and despising any forceful use of the will by man.

Where is the oasis on our journey to be like Christ? Who is most like Him? Is a homeless beggar more like our Lord, than the king who speaks, and all obey him? Who was more like God, Francis of Assisi or Constantine?


"Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will no further." - Job 40:4
Once we distinguish between act and will, this argument falls apart. At most, force can prevent the acts of the will from realization, but it cannot force the will itself (e.g., although you could prevent my arm from moving by amputating it, you can't force my will for such in any interior way). You're also confusing different senses of humility: one, as a virtue, the other, as a circumstance. It's impossible to have a virtuous disposition forced upon us. Beggars, as well as kings, can lack the virtue of humility. With this in mind, as it is within the will that we live virtuously or sinfully, even the lowliest man can still imitate Christ's kingship. Here, Christ's restraint is an effect of obedience. We must, as did Christ, deny ourselves to conform our will to God's. And this submission perfects, not destroys, our will. The Jews were scandalized by Christ's revelation because they were expecting a worldly king, a Messiah to liberate them from foreign subjugation. Christ came to liberate us from a far worse danger, sin, which, by overcoming, we truly imitate Him.
 
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Luminous

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What is the ultimate aim of the Christian living in the world? Is there only one type of holiness, that of the monk? Or could there be multiple goods, the good of Francis of Assisi and the good of Constantine? How can both the life of a monk, who would rather let himself be killed than harm another in his denial of the will, be the same as the Emperor who must execute the death penalty and wage war for the defense of the Christian state?

And if we who live in the world strive to be like the monk, how can we practice the spirituality of the monk? Would it not be better to aim for the spirituality of the Christian emperor, the spirituality that is not preached from the altar, a hidden, but self evident teaching, to the self that looks inward instead of seeking outward explanations and never ending commentaries ever flowing from the pens of the preachers of self denial?

A teaching that in a more brutal age was the normal thinking of men, the virtue of the righteous conqueror, of Moses who with the blood of the Egyptians on his hands, was the friend of God. Of David who with the 200 foreskins of the Philistines, married the daughter of Saul. Of Constantine who overcoming the Tetrarchy through bloody civil war, became the sole ruler of the Empire. Of Charlemagne who after swearing an oath to the Pope over the relics of St. Peter, united the Franks and forcibly converted them, with the sword.

The lives of these men cannot be harmonized with the life and spirituality of monks and priests, it is a distinct kind of faith that was unique to the Christians of the world, that has been lost. They had a faith that could exist in the world without contradiction. Constantine leading his army to slaughter his personal enemies, the barriers to his supreme power, sees the Cross of our Savior in a mystical vision, encouraging him with the exclusive gift of prophets, the ultimate self assurance that his will is united with the will of God.

The life of the monk is holy we know, unending tomes have been written on them and their virtues, but what of this seemingly contradictory faith and spirituality? Who can know it other than the experiential one, who against the guidance of the Church searches out this way, his selfish will leading him on a path, that is satanic for the monk, but saintly for the king?


"To every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heavens: A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up, a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." - Ecclesiastes
 
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Slerk

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What is the ultimate aim of the Christian living in the world? Is there only one type of holiness, that of the monk? Or could there be multiple goods, the good of Francis of Assisi and the good of Constantine? How can both the life of a monk, who would rather let himself be killed than harm another in his denial of the will, be the same as the Emperor who must execute the death penalty and wage war for the defense of the Christian state?

Cor 11. It would be better to remain celibate than to be married. Therefore it is better to be a monk than a king. The King is like God in so far as he is a ruler, and he has power and he creates, so there is a sense in which a King is a type of God in the same way Priest is a type of Bishop, just in a far lower part of the hierarchy. There is a reason in functioning period of time the Pope has supremacy over the Holy Roman Emperor.


satanic for the monk, but saintly for the king?

1> Gay
2> The King should still submit to God


"To every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heavens: A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up, a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." - Ecclesiastes

Exercise reason and wisdom. You would know it if was the time or not. It's called context clues if you were wondering.
 

Stiff

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Christ and Hitler were both clear that the poor are robbed of the chance to act virtuously by their dispossession. Jesus healed the sick before telling them to believe. The virtue of poverty is in maintaining your faith and goodwill in a state of deprivation.

Rather than increasing in virtue, the most pressed-upon and chronically underserved people are often driven from deprivation to depravity. Cynicism is closeness to death. This is why you feed yourself and Christ by feeding the hungry. Charity bolsters the faith of others, and frees their hearts. An inability to accept, build on, and pass charity to others is a sign of a reprobate mind.

A king is only like God as long as people hold faith in his leadership, which is easy to lose.
A monk is only like God when his existence is contigent on God alone, but he lives on charity.
Jesus showed us how both of these people can live virtuously. The bottom line is that both their moms had sex, so it's not really worth comparing them on these terms.

The life of the monk is holy we know, unending tomes have been written on them and their virtues, but what of this seemingly contradictory faith and spirituality? Who can know it other than the experiential one, who against the guidance of the Church searches out this way, his selfish will leading him on a path, that is satanic for the monk, but saintly for the king?
pissballsack prose :cyclops:
 

Luminous

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